The Figure shows the DYS 390,391 system for haplotypes extracted from the YHRD 15,000 haplotype database for Europe.  DYS392 = 13 was used as R1b criterion.  In each box is given the repeats for 390,391 and the population in parenthesis. 
 

                 

If these results represented only a single modal haplotype at 24,11 (the Atlantic Modal Haplotype) which had come into existence in the past and had been accumulating mutations in 390 and 391 since its founding, the fall off in population would tend to be more symmetric than seen.  One of the first things to note is that 390 mutates faster than 391, in any case.  There is excess population at 23/11 and 24/10 beyond what one would expect by one-step mutations from the AMH.  If independent modal haplotypes came into existence at 23/11 and 24/10 at their individual times in the past, and we superimpose these populations with their mutations in 390 and 391 which have accumulated since their founding, then the asymmetric distribution of populations can be understood significantly better.  But there is still an apparent excess population at 23/10 beyond what one would expect from one-step mutations from the two new modal haplotypes at 23/11 and 24/10.  So an even smaller population of descendants of a modal haplotype 23/10 completes the picture. 
 
The numbers in the Figure are Total Europe.  Although I see the evidence I have explained above for the need for a hierarchy of four modal haplotype descendant populations, that by itself would not be that useful, and perhaps not that convincing to some.  But the YHRD database is divided up into about 100 regional databases spread throughout Europe.  One can find the populations of these four modal haplotypes by region and determine if the geographical distributions differ by modal haplotype population?  If they do in a clear measured way, this is strong confirmation that we are seeing in today's product of haplotype distribution the results of four populations of peoples who have to some degree spread out and migrated in Europe differently.
 
Very briefly, some of the highlights of geographic patterns seen are:
 
24/11 (ATM) is very high population with the Basques and surrounding Iberian areas and then up the Atlantic coast to France and Britain; well-present along the Rhine and into southern Germany.
 
23/11 is highest in "Greater Frisia" (Brussels, Holland, NW Germany, Denmark); solid throughout Germany and falls off back in Iberia
 
24/10 is elevated back in Iberia but not like 24/11; it hardly gets to Norway/Sweden.
 
23/10 is present most strongly toward SE Germany; it also hardly got to Norway/Sweden.
 
Detailed geographic tabulations for these modal haplotype populations are posted to the List.
 
Note:  The 809 haplotypes of the 23/11 variety surely include many one-step mutations of haplotypes which are descendants of the 24/11 founder, and vice-versa.  Similarly, some fraction of the 23/10 haplotypes are not descendants of the hypothesized founder of that modal haplotype, but they are instead  one-step mutations of originally 24/10 haplotypes, and vice-versa.  The population flow up and down the boxes due to single-step mutations at DYS 391 is significantly less due to the evidently lower mutation rate of this marker.  But from the overall pattern of populations in the Figure, one makes more sense of this pattern by adding the four sources of founding modal haplotypes with their separate growths of descendant populations.
 
Look at the one-step mutational exchange between 23/11 and 24/11.  If we want to understand the ratio of descendants of the modal haplotype founders, then mutations between the (larger) 24/11 population into the (smaller) 23/11 population will tend to enlarge the 23/11 population and diminish the 24/11 population --- unless there is substantial difference in "up" versus "down" mutational rates.  These corrections can be done.  Also, populations like 25/11 and 25/10 can be assumed to be one-step mutated variations of the 24/11 and 24/10 descendant populations, respectively.  These corrections can also be made for purposes of improving the geographical statistics and better determining the sub-clade populations.  What do I mean by "true sub-clade populations"?  Unique SNP mutation tags will probably be found eventually for each of these identified modal haplotype descendant populations; they will then become haplogroup sub-clades or sub-sub-clades .... of R1b. 
 
One might ask, "why don't you go on to assume another very small sized modal haplotype 25/11 to "explain" the 319 found haplotypes"?  First reason for not doing so is that 319 does not seem to be too unusual a number of mutations from the large 24/11 population; and secondly, there would simply not be the statistical power from the geographically divided database to check whether this additional hypothesized modal haplotype had its own unique geographical distribution in Europe. 
 
My purpose for doing this kind of study is not to give every R1b haplotype another label, but to try to understand the pre-historic history of the spread of peoples in Europe.  The "history" will be written in the haplotype and haplogroup distributions.  For purposes of the haplotypes of individual people, this structure may tilt the odds as to the deep origins of their haplotype.
 
Ken

6/29/04